1985-01-17 Workshop Session3601
WORKSHOP SESSION
THURSDAY, JANUARY 17TH. 1985
Chairman Chapman called the workshop session to order at 7:00 p.m. in
Council Chambers at City Hall, 55 South East Third Avenue. The following Council
members were present:
Oakland Chapman, Chairman
Andy Rubin, Vice Chairman
Edward W. Douglas, Councilman
Nick Collins, Councilman
Councilman Oscar Thomas was absent.
Others prsent were:
Bonnie S. Thomas, C.M.C., City Clerk
David M. Conlon, City Attorney
Landon C. Fortner, City Administrative Assistant
Lydia Jean Wilkerson, Deputy Clerk
Chairman Chapman stated the purpose of the workshop session, to discuss
specifications for legal services and the method of grassing at the Sewer Treatment
Plant site. He asked Attorney Conlon to begin the discussion.
Attorney Conlon addressed Council as follows: "After having been here
for a little over ten years, I have come to learn quite a bit about the legal affairs
of the City of Okeechobee and its situations and what is involved. When you are
looking for a new method of having those legal services provided, I would like to
suggest two catagories to keep in mind:
I. Inside work - the day to day work that you would expect from an
-- attorney, (such as)
A. Attend your council meetings,
B. Attend (subject) board meetings,
C. Answer routine and normal questions on the telephone,
D. Help draft ordinances, resolutions, contracts, and
E. Day to day office practice work.
That type of work you might choose to bid out by the hour, or you might say that
you would pay a salary per month to have it done.
II. Unusual legal situations - you never know when they are going to
arise - lawsuits, or some unexpected situations that involves things other than
the routine day to day. You might bid that out by the hour, or you might want to
employ somebody like the County does, a full time attorney that does everything.
The pros and cons of some of the various ways are, if you bid the inside
work by the hour, then you're subject to getting bills at the end of the month for
all the different things that may have happened at the City attorney's office. If
you ask for a bid on the following services:
A. Attend all meetings,
B. Be an advisor for the councilmen, clerk and department heads,
C. Draft all ordinances, resolutions, contracts, etc.
D. Handle routine complaints from other attorneys and letters, and
E. Look into this and that,
you might find that an attorney has a fixed amount and may tend to do the work as
efficiently as they can. They may do it as efficiently as they can by the hour too,
!� I don't know. That's something to think about."
i You may decide that you are going to award this bid for one attorney to
do everything- the inside work and the outside work,(or unusual legal situations).-,
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"One of the problems of outside work is in some cases it is helpful to have
an inside attorney to determine if this outside legal work needs to be done. But, if
youchoose to bid everything for the City by the hour, then an attorney would give you
bills for the inside work and the attorney who is doing the inside work, when he runs
into potential suits, rumblings of a suit, would have to make tip his mind how he
was going to structure the resolution of that problem.
1. Is he going to resolve it inside or outside of the court system
2. Whether he is paid either way, I don't know if that has a bearing
or doesn't. It will be something for you to think about. I think it will be diffi-
cult to try to bid for attorney services that he would agree to do every single thing
that there is for a flat: amount, because he doesn't know what would be non -routine."
III. Procedure - "So, this can be:
A. All contract,
B. All P.mployment
C. Contract with somebody to do the inside work, and you can handle
on a case by case what you want to do if:
1. a federal lawsuit comes up and you want to hire a federal
attorney,
2. an administrative problem comes up with Tallahassee, you
may want to hire an administrative attorney.
If you bid this out, if one of the methods you choose is to.have,an
attorney do everything, just by the way you do the bid he may be locked in to -!doing
everything whether it is in his field or not.
So, these are the things that you need to decide about:
A. The job description you're going to bid. You need to describe
the job and describe how you want the bid.
B. Do you want a flat amount to do this job?
C. Do you want it by the hour, and have (the attorney) state how
many hours.
Another thing you might look at after you decide how you are going to do it.
A. What kind of specifications do you want.
1. Five years experience,
2. No experience,
3. One years experience,
4. Municipal experience,
5. Real estate experience, (I could tell you real estate would
be very helpful to the person who has this job. A lot of the questions result around
real property.)
Price may or may not be the final criteria. Interview each one, have your
department heads feelings and input with each one. Ask the interviewees some hypotheti-
cal questions at the interview. Example: maybe somebody is $42. an hour and someone
is $41. an hour. Maybe the $42, hour guy you could ask a hypothetical question, i.e.,
June 1.5, 1985 was there any document that had to be filed anywhere in order for us
to apply a higher tax this year than we did last year? You may want to make up a
few of the kinds of questions that come up.
Also in the specs, when you lay out what the attorney is going to do,
you might want some input from the department heads of what they expect. For
instance, we have to go through certain procedures to tax each year. These are very
technical procedures. Our Clerk is quite capable of interpreting the statutes and
figuring it all out."
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After Attorney Conlon's opening remark., Councilman Collins asked if Attorney
Conlon's salary for 1984 took care of everything pertaining to City business except
litigation. Attorney Conlon reiteriated that it took care of meetings, calls confer-
ences, writing letters, reviewing ordinances, that "type of stuff - inside work".
IV. Survey — other city attorneys
Councilman Collins said that he had contacted some of the cities basically
the same size, population -wise, as Okeechobee. He said, "I told them what I
wanted was the total cost of the total to city attorneys, everything except court cases.
What they were paying their city attorney to take care of the whole City business.
Ordinances, resolutions, contracts, attend all meetings, everything." Councilman
Collins gave the following figures: Pahokee, 5,500 pop., lawyer not on retainer,
paid $75. hr. Avon Park, 8,500 pop., $40. hr. $12,000. budgeted to take care of
attorney fees. Sebring, 10,045 pop., $1,500. retainer plus $50. hr., average yearly
outlay, $8,500. Clewiston, 5,500. pop., no lawyer on retainer, $6,323. yearly plus
$10,000. life contract and hospitalization plan.
Attorney Conlon said to get the best price, probably would be to request
a figure per month to take care of routine matters, routine documents, attend
meetings and be on call.
Then when matters arise, "big, uncontrollable matters", the board may
have confidence in the attorney they have been working.with, or they may bid that
out and ask the attorney they have been working with to "keep on top of their bills
and document them".
He went on to say, "I think the most costly way would be to say we
would bid by the hour to an attorney every legal thing that comes to the city. Tell
us your price, the job's yours, just send the bills in. That way would prove to be
more costly."
"You need to find somebody that you all have good respect for and that
you feel knows the community, knows real property law, has a reputation for being
good at research, a reputation for returning calls. From what I have seen here,
there has been very little occasion percentage -wise to be in the Court House.
The job is mostly handled from the office on the telephone.
Trial. Lawyer vs Real Estate Corporate Law
If you had two equal bidders and you liked them both, and one of them was
a trial lawyer who handled divorces and D,U.I.s and juvenile cases, traffic court
notices, and the other one was a real estate corporate lawyer, if they were equal,
your department heads are going to be calling with questions and the fellow's
(trial lawyer) going to be in court."
During further discussion, Attorney Conlon said among the many factors to
consider is the size of the office. He felt this "doesn't work very well" though
it may sound good, as factors may be overlooked in complex matters if the work is
spread between too many people.
He said, ".....you need to have a further meeting to take action on the
motion of Mr. R.ubin's to terminate me and get a second and get it passed so you
can get somebody in there, because I am anxious to turn my stuff over to somebody.
Let's get moving on the deal. It's obvious that some of the clients don't want
my advice, and it's just not a good relationship to be legally responsible to
somebody that for whatever reason doesn't want your advice."
Attorney Conlon said that he has thirteen matters on his desk that need
work done on them that he would like to give to somebody.
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V. Advertise for Attorney --�
Councilman Rubin stated that he had discussed advertising for a city
attorney with several people, including Okeechobee County Bar Association, and
all frowned upon advertising for this job. It was suggested that any interested
attorneys approach Council with their offers.
VI. Specifications
Attorney Conlon said, "Another way you might do it, would be, write up the
description for the inside work, exactly what it is - taking calls, meetings, pre-
paring the difference contracts, research property ownership ..... Describe the things
you want done, offer it at a certain price per month, or something, and say you are
going to take resumes' See how many people want to do the job at the price you want
to pay and then pick the one you like the best."
Councilman Collins said, "I visited with 90 per cent of the attorneys in
the city and the ones that were interested in the job at all told me they would be
more than happy to fill in a bid on the job."
VII Long Term Commitment
Attorney Conlon replied, "You need to decide what you are going to ask
them to do, everything, or just the inside, you'll handle the other when it comes
up. Are you going to bid it by how much they would do it as a wage, a salary.
There are certain benefits to being a salaried employee."
"Others may not be interested in that, they may be interested in what
kind of dollars. Hopefully you will have a continuity that whoever you get will
look at it as a long term commitment. Attorneys looking at this, that's their
problem how they look at it. If they bid the low price and you like them and you
hire them, that's their job, they're stuck with it if they forgot to look in how
deep, how much of their time will be demanded, what kind of client is this.
This client, the City of Okeechobee, is a complex client. It has a
board of directors of five people controlling a corporation with 70 employees,
and a multi -million dollar budget. It is involved in all kinds of activities,
owns a lot of land, a lot of easements and rights in land. It hasn't had the
union raise it's head around here yet, but that's another thing that might be
coming that the attorney will have to deal with. Laws are ever changing. Anti-
trust exemptions have been stripped away, personal liability exemptions have been
stripped away, the class action rights of agrieved people, civil rights, employment
rights and all the other rights the taxpayers are becoming increasingly aware of
that they have, with some of the penalities and statutes that are on the books.
VIII New laws
I think we had over a hundred laws affecting municipalities, or the people
that control them, passed this year - 120 last year - are putting us in the position
that you have to watch every little thing you do or there might be some group going
to file something. In Okeechobee it hasn't been happening, but Okeechobee is
becoming a little more sophisticated, people are beginning to look a little more
closely at dollars, and we have to figure out how to tax and regulate land, how to
zone and amend zoning of land. The City of Okeechobee has created a few boards and
a few departments that aren't really being used too much right now that might start
firing up. There are all kinds of areas that we're in that have potential that a
lawyer has to sit down with a department head and look something up or answer
something that we may not have been in (covered) before. There is a lot of poten-
tial work here, so the fellow that bids this at a low price, he'll be back for an
adjustment probably next year. If you bid it again next year, you'll be changing
lawyers every couple of years. If you change lawyers every couple of years, most
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... large corporations have found that that's not good either. There is a lot of
history that is lost in transitions of what's going on."
Chairman Chapman stated, "Sometimes you don't get the best for the
least , I think you're going to have to take more into consideration, experience,
reputation."
Attorney Conlon said, "I'd suggest you have a least a five year active
practice of working for government somewhere."
After further discussion, Attorney Conlon stated, "As the Attorney for
this City, I cared about this client and liked this job. I was, in my mind, a
pure attorney. If this City wanted me to look hard at somebody, I did. If they
wanted me to talk, I did, if they wanted me to file something, I did. When they
came over and went down my list of these things and said, 'Move this one up to the
top, I've got to have it tomorrow", I said, 'You've really got to have it tomorrow?',
if they said "Yes", they got it. I did what my client wanted. You need to find
an attorney that does that and does it out of love and care for the job. The
money isn't there."
He said the only way he could continue to do the job at the price was
because he knew how to do the job, he had attended seminars and looked up
similar questions, etc.
Chairman Chapman asked for further discussion.
IX Experience - necessary requirement
Councilman Douglas said, "I would just like to say, we have an attorney
that has ten years of experience, during that ten years he has put a lot of time
into the city receiving adequate pay for it on a professional basis, and if you
will figure out the time that he spends at meetings, and the work he does for the
city he is running mighty close, if not below, the normal professional level of the
basic fee he probably charges for his clients.
If we get someone who has to learn all over again, somebody is going to
have to pay for their time researching the law and consequently I think we're going
to be behind the eight ball."
Chairman Chapman recognized Clerk Thomas, who said, "Just a few things I
jotted down while David was talking are some of the things, I'm sure it's not all,
that I need the city attorney for routinely - that I have to take care of in running
my office: Ordinances, resolutions,solicitor permits, occupational licenses,
millage, the trim bill requirements, utility taxes, franchise fees, leases, as-
sessments, annexation, budget, voting conflict of interest, meetings of govern-
mental bodies, handicap regulations, revenue sharing laws, sunshine laws, state
election laws and advertising laws. These are just a few of the things the clerk
needs the city attorney for.
Dr. Douglas asked, "This is just your department?"
Clerk Thomas replied, "Yes."
Dr. Douglas said, "There is still L. C.'s department, Administrative
Department, Fire Department, Police Department, etc."
Attorney Conlon said, " Don't leave off the Building Department, they
have some real lulu's cases there."
Dr. Douglas continued,"Building Department, zoning, legal descriptions."
There was some discussion about a rase for the Police Department, and
Attorney Conlon said, "Police Department will have few things here, for criminal
matters they call the State Attorney's Office, who takes care of that."
• .l
Attorney Conlon discussed his salary, which is not $65. per hour, but
$19,300. annually, and added that he attends all meetings..
GRASSING AT THE WATER AND SEWER PLANT, next workshop item.
When Mr. Jim Broome was called on, he handed maps to the members of
the Council, and pointed out that areas on the map indicated by the color green
are depressed areas, i.e. ditches, ponds, low areas that will need approximately
one foot of fill, and after the fill would need grassing. The area in question is
approximately 100 acres.
The color yellow is for spray irrigation.
There was discussion about the buffer and whether it needed grassing. Mr.
Broome said, " Well, we cannot spray irrigate on the buffer, so there is no need for
grassing it."
"Basically the area which we are not filling, roughly about 210 acres,
is very rough, they've done a lot in the past, no doubt, of tomato farming there
and its got little furrows all over the sod, also, the part that has good Bhaia
on it today is still very rough. It doesn't have any furrows on it, but its
just never been smoothed out."
I. Disc_ and Roll
"We fe el that the whole site needs to be disced and rolled, and the areas
that need grassing, we're not for sure right now of the areas that are going to be
filled.
We also feel that there will be an income from the grass that's out there
today, and it's quite possible from this income we can work out the financing of
the grassing."
II. D E R- E P A requirements
"We're not sure how the D E R and the E P A are going to hold us to, what
type of grassing we're going to do before the plant goes into operation. We've
had a lot of correspondence with them on the grassing, and just finally approved
this change order for eliminating grassing from the original contract documents.
We felt that by eliminating that at this state of the game that we quite possibly
could save a lot of money because that particular bid item was quite high."
There was further discussion regarding having a separate contract or
ever. the City doing the work.
III. Contingency
Mr. Broome explained, "There is approximately $97,000., which is in con-
tingency for this project, of which the Federal Government will pay 55%. When that
money is used up, we don't believe that we'll get anymore grant funds. We definitely
encourage Council to use that money on the plant, as much as possible, because you
are getting 55,,1 for every dollar you spend. However, when that is used up, then
it's totally City money. (costs) There are some other items - we're not through
with the project - that the contingency is for, unfor_seen costs, so we .recommend
holding on to some of it (the contingency) if you can. Grassing would go at the
very end of the project. If we really had to cut costs, we believe that we
could get by with just seeding." (instead of grassing)
IV. Contract Grassing
Chairman Chapman asked, "Is there a possibility that we could get
somebody to grass it for the cuttings?"
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Mr. Broome responded, "Today, as I understand it, there is an individual
or company out there, apparently some kind of legal connection, or somehow, he has
a contract with the Boy's School, and it is my understanding that we honored this
last cutting. He probably cut 75 to 100 acres. As far as construction, it (the
cutting) was very nice, we can see what we're doing."
After further discussion, Mr. Broome said, "If you do any contracting
out for grassing today, or while the project is under construction, to get any of
this E P A grant money, or if you want to do it yourself, you would have to go
through the procedure.that we went through originally to get this job. Advertise
and bid out a contract. The only other course we have is negotiate with the con-
tractor, Widell. So, it's our recommendation to hold off as long as possible."
V. Fill for low areas
Mr. Broome further stated, "We have another big item that we're not
sure about. The way we approached this job - you know this job was designed back
in 1978 - 79, that period of time. In the re -design we tried to address just the
things we had to address to cut costs. We have a real accurate number of the
cubic yards that we are actually excavating from the buffer zone, ditches and
holding ponds; a real accurate number of what we're doing with the access roads,
plant sites, etc. The number that we're shy on is, in the middle of those depres-
sion areas, it's been very costly for us to go in and survey those areas. They
need to be filled prior to the project going into operation. We definitely feel
that way. If there is any money anywhere to be spent, we definitely feel it is
there, because it's now or never. You have a very good bid on the heavy constr-
1� tion work, so what I'm trying to say is that we don't know quite where we stand on
the fill of the low areas in the spray irrigation site, which can be costly."
He explained that clearing was in progress, the contractor was
shooting elevations, and the figure should be available in about 30 days,
indicating what the cost would be.
As Mr. Broome continued with his overview, he discussed with Council
the operation of a traveling gun in the spray irrigation area.
He continued, "Where we are today as far as change orders, we've spent
approximately $12,000. in change orders todate."
Mr. Fortner said, "Let me add that D E R has requested a couple of times
that the City make some decision on the grassing. They are very concerned and
we have been trying to stall it off as long as possible so we have a better picture
of what we will actually need out there. So the City has mailed D E R a letter
stating that before the project is finished - put in operation - the City will see,
either through its own forces or through the contractor, that the grassing will be
accomplished. That's what Jim is saying, we can hold off as long as possible before
the grassing, and if we have to, we can just put the seed down and let the seed
grow as it will over a long period of time. This will satisfy D E R. The contract
is supposed to be finished and the contractor moves out August 1 of this year.
Early summer we will have to look at doing something with the grass, but it's not
an immediate item."
Further discussion ensued about the last grass cutting through the con-
- 11 tract at the Boys School.
Also discussed was the amount of grass that was cut and what can be
- 11 expected in the future.
Mr. Fortner said, "Jim (Broome) and I have discussed in the past that -^
we have 300 acres that will require grassing of some kind, and we've kicked around
the idea of putting a specific kind of grass in a hundred acres, taking another
hu Tdred acres and putting a different kind, and determing from the yield what is
the best type of grass for growth in that area. Some grows better in some areas
and some in others. That was some of the thoughts we had, but it would be up to
Council at a later date."
VI. Trees-'Buffer'Zone
There was more discussion about grassing, and then Chairman Chapman
recognized Mr. Broome who said, "We would like to recommend the planting of some
evergreens or some kind of fast growing trees along the buffer zone soon after
they finish the construction along cemetary road for two reasons: One, to
stabilize the slopes on the ditch with the roots of the trees, whatever, and two,
to prevent any possible aerosol drift."
* * TELEPHONE CABLE
Another item Mr. Broome discussed is.the problem of the telephone cable
on South Seast Tenth,.which.they will not move because they feel that Councy gave
them a permit, and that was.al.l that was necessary. The cost to move the cable
would be approximately $15,000.
Attorney Conlon told Council that possibly the problem could be resolved
now if the City could show that legally the "phone company doesn't have.the right,
even though somebody at the County Road Department gave them a permit. They
didn't give them an easement because it is City property, and an easement could
only be given by the City.
Mr. Broome said the only other alternative is to put the line in the
street and completely replace the street. He said, "Our feeling at the time is to
make the telephone company move their cable."
Mr. Fortner reported that discussion with.the telephone company had
revealed that for them to have someone on the site to uncover the cable, keep
it from falling in during excavation, protect it, would be $25,000. They were
asked to contribute that to the cost to relocate it, but no agreement was reached.
Mr. Fortner suggested that a letter be written to the telephone company
stating that their cable was in the way and some action must be taken.
Attorney Conlon said it was not necessary to discuss this at a regular
meeting, that Mr. Fortner could write the first letter asking the telephone company
to state their position, which could later be followed up by a letter from the
attorney.
Discussion then reverted to Mr. Broome asking him to research the best
type of tree to plant in the buffer zone.
* P. A. SYSTEM
Mr. Collins stated that he had quite a bit of experience with P. A.
systems, and gave a report on a system with nine mikes, tape deck, etc, for which
he would do the installation. The complete outfut runs around $1,900. with no
installation cost.
* * HOSPICE GRANT
Mr. Chapman mentioned two items for consideration.
One, he distributed a paper to each councilman for future consideration.
Two, a grant for Hospice to replace the grant previously applied for by
the City for the Ministerial Association.
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REQUEST - CITY SEWER
Mr. John.Prevatt addressed Council regarding a trailer park he was putting
85-27 in at Jack Coker's_plate. He would like to connect to City sewer. The development
will be about 245 units, with ten acres of commercial frontage. He stated he was
on the agenda for Monday night's regular meeting, but warted to bring it up so
they could be considering.the matter.
Mr. Fortner advised Council that Wal-Mart Shopping Center is still
interested in connecting to City Sewer, and now is the time to consider the matter
while the road is under construction and the pipe can be laid.
Chairman Chapman asked if anyone else wished to address Council.
There was none.
Meeting adjourned at 9:10.
Chairman
ATTEST:
Bonnie S. Thomas, C. M. C.
City Clerk
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